(28)
The Chairman.-Is there any other information you can give or anything else you wish to say?
A.-I suppose you don't want to know about the specific cases as to how the frauds were committed.
Q. What are the dates?
A.-In December last.
Q.-You say they were committed by altering the receipts?
A.-And by issuing a forged chop.
Q.-Forging the shroff's chop?
A.-Yes.
Q.-You think that in the great majority of the cases the money must have been made away with by issuing receipts not in these books?
A. Yes, I think so.
Mr. Bird.-The receipts must have been chopped by a false chop?
A. Yes. If you look at the chops on the receipts you will be able to tell the forged ones at once. (Receipts produced). We have been through the last half year's counterfoils. Why he did not make away with the whole of the counterfoils I cannot make out because he left several that clearly showed that he had done this. This is the only book of counterfoils we have got (produced). It is from September, 1892, to January, 1893.
Q.-Have you any false receipts?
A.-Yes (produced).
Q.-Here is a receipt dated 5th July, 1892, from the Rev. Martinet $844.85. You say this does not appear at all?
A.-Yes, it appears for $644.85 and that is the forged chop (exhibited). You will see that it is numbered 772. He passed the shroff one corresponding with the counterfoil for $644.85.
Q.-And when he got the receipt from the shroff he tore up that receipt?
A.-Yes, and put a false chop on it.
Q.-Have you an instance in which there is no counterfoil at all, in which he has embezzled the whole amount?
A.-No.
At this point the Commission adjourned until 3 o'clock in the afternoon.
J. A. de Carvalho called.
The Chairman.-What is your name?
Witness.-Januario Antonio de Carvalho.
Q.-You have recently taken your pension?
A.-Yes,
Q.-Since when?
A.-Since January 1st this year.
Q.-How long had you been in the Treasury?
A.-Since August, 1855.
Q.-When you retired you were chief clerk?
A. Yes.
(29)
Q.-How long had you been chief clerk?
A.-Since January, 1860.
Q.-We won't go back as far as that, but in 1885 and 1886 and until Mr. Mitchell Innes' arrival what were your duties as chief clerk? There was no regular Treasurer, there was Mr. Lister who was Postmaster besides?
A.-Yes.
Q.-Under that system what were your duties as chief clerk?
A.-My duties were to open all letters addressed to the Treasury and distribute them to the several officers in charge of particular services, and sign all receipts for the Treasurer.
Mr. Thurburn.-All receipts, including Crown Rents?
A.-Yes, all.
The Chairman.-Did you personally receive any money? Had you to receive any money?
A.-It was the shroff's duty to receive money.
Q.-But suppose some of these letters contained cheques, what used you to do with them?
A.-If I saw that a letter was for Crown Rent I would pass the cheque to the shroff and the letter to Alves, and if the cheque was for taxes I would pass the letter to the clerk in charge of the taxes.
Q.-Mr. Alves was under you?
A.-Yes.
Q.-What were his duties?
A. His duty was to keep the Rent Roll, journal and to close up the colonial account, the yearly account, and also the Crown Agents' account.
Q.-Was it any part of his duty to receive money?
A.-It was in Mr. Lister's time, when he gave a written authority for Mr. Alves and other clerks to sign for the Treasury. For instance, Mr. Alves would sign for Crown Rent and Mr. Madar for rates and taxes.
Mr. Thurburn.-Previously you used to sign?
A.-Yes.
The Chairman.-Why was the change made?
A.-Because I could not do so many things. For instance, the taxes receipts for one Chinaman, like Lai Hing, would take me three quarters of an hour to sign.
Q.-Only once a year?
A.-Every quarter.
Q.-Taxes are collected every quarter?
A. Yes.
Q.-For Crown Rent, how long would it have taken you to sign?
A.-I could not exactly say, but it would not have taken me so long.
Q.-What had you to do? What was your time taken up by?
A.-I had to receive money and witness to payments, contractors, and others.
Q.-You said you received no money?
A. The shroff received the money.
681
( 28 )
The Chairman.-Is there any other information you can give or anything else you wish to say?
A.-I suppose you don't want to know about the specific cases as to how the frauds were committed.
Q. What are the dates ?
A.-In December last.
Q-You say they were committed by altering the receipts?
A.--And by issuing a forged chop.
Q.-Forging the shroff's chop?
A.---Yes.
Q.-You think that in the great majority of the cases the money must have been made away with by issuing receipts not in these books?
A. Yes, I think so.
Mr. Bird.--The receipts must have been chopped by a false chop?
A. Yes. If you look at the chops on the receipts you will be able to tell the forged ones at once. (Receipts produced). We have been through the last half year's counterfoils. Why he did not make away with the whole of the counterfoils I cannot make out because he left several that clearly showed that he had done this. This is the only book of counterfoils we have got (produced). It is from September, 1892, to January, 1893.
Q-Have you any false receipts ?
A.-Yes (produced).
Q.--Here is a receipt dated 5th July, 1892, from the Rev. Martinet $844.85.
this does not appear at all?
You say
A.-Yes, it appears for $644.85 and that is the forged chop (exhibited). You will see that it is numbered 772. He passed the shroff one corresponding with the counterfoil for $644.85.
Q.--And when he got the receipt from the shroff he tore up that receipt? A.--Yes, and put a false chop on it.
Q-Have you an instance in which there is no counterfoil at all, in which he has embezzled the whole amount ?
A.--No.
At this point the Commission adjourned until 3 o'clock in the afternoon.
J. A. de Carvalho called.
The Chairman.--What is your name?
Witness.---Januario Antonio de Carvalho.
Q-You have recently taken your pension ? A.--Yes,
Q-Since when ?
A.--Since January 1st this year.
Q.--How long had you been in the Treasury ?
A.--Since August, 1855.
Q.-When retired
you
A. Yes.
you were chief clerk ?
( 29 )
you
been chief clerk ?
Q-How long had A.-Since January, 1860.
Q.
-We won't go back as far as that, but in 1885 and 1886 and until Mr. Mitchell- There was no regular Treasurer, Innes' arrival what were your duties as chief clerk ? There was Mr. Lister who was Postmaster besides?
A. -Yeg.
Q.-Under that system what were your duties as chief clerk?
A.-My duties were to open all letters addressed to the Treasury and distribute them to the several officers in charge of particular services, and sign all receipts for the Treasurer.
Mr. Thurburn.--All receipts, including Crown Rents? A.-Yes, all.
The Chairman.Did you personally receive any money? Had you to receive any money?
A.-It was the shroff's duty to receive money.
Q.—But suppose some of these letters contained cheques, what used you to do with
them?
A....... If I saw that a letter was for Crown Rent I would pass the cheque to the shroff and the letter to Alves, and if the cheque was for taxes I would pass the letter to the clerk in charge of the taxes.
Q-Mr. Alves was under you?
A.-Yes.
Q.-What were his dutics?
A. His duty was to keep the Rent Roll, journal and to close up the colonial account, the yearly account, and also the Crown Agents' account.
Q.--Was it any part of his duty to receive money?
A.-It was in Mr. Lister's time, when he gave a written anthority for Mr. Alves and other clerks to sign for the Treasury. For instance, Mr. Alves would sign for Crown Rent and Mr. Madar for rates and taxes.
Mr. Thurburu.--Previously you used to sign? A. --Yes.
The Chairman.--Why was the change made?
A.--Because I could not do so many things. For instance, the taxes receipts for one Chinaman, like Lai Hing, would take me three quarters of an hour to sign.
Q-Only once a year?
A.-Every quarter.
Q-Taxes are collected every quarter?
A. Yes.
Q-For Crown Rent, how long would it have taken you to sign? A.--I could not exactly say, but it would not have taken me so long.
Q---What had you to do? What was your time taken up by?
A.---I had to receive money and witness to payments, contractors, and others.
Q.-You said you received no money?
A. The shroff received the money.
681
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